Spain, Italy, and a Dutch MP post those cartoons
If only they hadn’t kicked up such a fuss in the first place.
The BBC reports that La Stampa in Italy, and El Periodico in Spain have both reprinted some of the offending Mo toons, joining Denmark, Norway, Germany and apparently Iceland in the stand for freedom of expression in Europe. The Die Welt editorial states:
The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical.
Meanwhile a Dutch MP Geert Wilders has published all 12 of the original Mo toons on his blog.
UPDATE: Dutch daily De Telegraaf has also published them.
UPDATE: The editor of France Soir has been sacked by his Coptic Christian boss, Raymond Lakah. Lakah said it was “as a powerful sign of respect for the intimate beliefs and convictions of every individual”.
If West countries believe freedom of expression, Why prison every talks about the myth Holocaust? I think freedom of expression is a lie.
for what my penny is worth, the cartoon doesn’t even look like muslims. It looks like a sikh wearing turban. Matbe sikhs should be protesting too at the misrepresentation!
Andy Gilmour,
One of the key points that you and others seem to be focusing on is the argument that:
“Why should muslims impose their values upon us?” “Well I don’t believe in Muhammed and so I can depict him in any way I want since I have the right to freedom of expression”
But what you don’t understand that just as “Freedom of Expression” is a right that you cherish so dearly in your western countries; “Prophet Muhammed” is one who is loved by Muslims above all dear things to them.
To make things clearer, true muslims love their Prophet more than their families, loved ones and even themselves.
I’m telling you this to draw the attention to the magnitude of the damage done by those cartoons.
Now, I really don’t know how the muslims imposed their values on you?
Since, you’re a non-theist naturally you’ll oppose any religious dogma that restricts you in any way, but what did the Mulims enforce on you exactly?
So Muslims are living among you (& believe it or not, we are instructed by our teachings to respect the regulations & laws of the country that we’re living in…), so what does some newspaper decide to do…release offensive cartoons of the important symbol for them; funny, then you start complaining of how “violent” the muslims are in their response…
In Arabic we have a saying: “Did we start this or you”.
Don’t think for a second that I agree with the embassies attacks or violent threats/protest; but I definitely understand where that anger is coming from.
No-one Andy is asked you or the Dutch or you westerns to believe in Prophet Muhammed PBUH, but by now its clear that insults to cherished symbols (be it related to religion or any cultural norm) donot serve any purpose of dialogue or understanding among the different cultures.
Also regarding your point about how no religion has proof of its deity, I’d like to correct that in Islam there’s a
branch of study (I’m no expert in that) that specializes in interpreting the Quranic ayas (Verses of the Holy Quran)
and extracting scientific proofs.
To give you a taste of what I’m talking about, observe the following Quranic verse:
” He creates you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness.†(TMQ Surat Az-Zumar 39:06)
Ponder *“…in three veils of darknessâ€*:This means the darkness of the sack surrounding the embryo, the darkness of the womb in which this sack lays and the darkness of the abdomen in which the womb lies.
This is a proof of the revelation of the Quran by God to Prophet Muhammed PBUH, since how would’ve Muhammed PBUH know this almost 1400 years ago! at a time when Science wasn’t advanced as today?
The Quran is full of many more miraculous “ayahs”/verses like this as well as the Prophet’s “traditions”.
For more info you can view the following link of one of the Muslim scientists:(Dr.Zaghloul Elnaggar :Professor of Earth Science & Geology):
http://www.elnaggarzr.com/Test_fre/English/index_E.asp
And by the way we have nothing against the study of Genetics, I’d like to refer you to a valuable website:
http://www.islamonline.net
I believe this website provide a useful resource for those who want to understand the “correct” view of Islam.
It also provides information about who “Prophet Muhammed PBUH” is and why is he loved & revered by Muslims.
As I said my aim in entering this discussion was to understand the reason behind releasing those cartoons,and now since I’ve understood that, I invite YOU to see for yourself why we love Prophet Muhammed PBUH and believe that he was sent as a mercy to all mankind.
I hope that you’re open to Logic and reason as you wrongly assumed us not to be.
To Andrew Nixon and all the other who are confused about the Prophet Mohammed’s wife Aisha and keep using this as an excuse to ridicule and hate him. Please read this and exercise some wisdom in future.
Aisha became the Prophet’s wife in Makkah when she was most likely in the 9th year of her life but her wedding did not take place until the second year after the Hijrah when she was about fourteen or fifteen years old. ‘A’isha was Abu Bakr’s daughter,this marriage was important for political reasons.
A rationale trying to explain why Mohammed married such a young girl is given in Sahih Muslim vol.2 footnote 1859 p.715. It says that “it was some exceptional circumstances that Hadrat ‘A’isha was married to the Prophet… The second point to be noted is that Islam has laid down no age limit for puberty for it varies with countries and races due to the climate, hereditary, physical and social conditions.”
The timing of normal puberty and sexual precocity varies around the world. You can not apply the rules of the 21st century to a person who died about one thousand 4 hundred years ago.
Let me rephrase my last line: you can do what you like but would it be right?
Thank you for reading.
OK, I’ll stop calling him a paedophile then.
I’ll just call him mentally ill, as anyone who has visions of the sort he said he had, is probably mentally ill.
Thank you for taking my point.
Please can you explain, What visions are you talking about?
Could I ask, if you believe in any religion at all?
Correct me if I’m wrong but Mohammad claimed to have had a vision of the angel Gabriel. As angles do not, and can not exist, Mohammad was either lying, or was mentally ill.
Of course not. Religion in it’s very nature is a ludicrous idea, and no rational person could possibly believe it.
1. Correct me if I’m wrong but Mohammad claimed to have had a vision of the angel Gabriel. As angles do not, and can not exist, Mohammad was either lying, or was mentally ill.
Andrew, you are a rational person. I hope you read this with an open mind. And I am not asking you to change your mind but see the facts for yourself.
Prophet Mohammad is a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.
A historian once said a great man should be judged by three tests: Was he found to be of true metal by his contemporaries? Was he great enough to raise above the standards of his ag ? Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large?
The first is: Was the Prophet of Islam found to be of true metal by his contemporaries?
Historical records show that all the contemporaries of Mohammad both friends foes, acknowledged the sterling qualities, the spotless honesty, the noble virtues, the absolute sincerity and every trustworthiness in all walks of life and in every sphere of human activity. Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality.
It is a notable feature in the history of prophet of Islam that his nearest relation, his beloved cousin and his bosom friends, who knew him most intimately, were not thoroughly imbued with the truth of his mission and were convinced of the genuineness of his divine inspiration. If these men and women, noble, intelligent, financially established and strong members of their clan, educated and intimately acquainted with his private life had perceived the slightest signs of deception, fraud, earthliness, or lack of faith in him, Mohammad’s moral hope of regeneration, spiritual awakening, and social reform would all have been foredoomed to a failure and whole edifice would have crumbled to pieces in a moment. On the contrary, we find that he had the strongest devotion of his followers you can imagine. They braved for him persecutions and danger; they trusted, obeyed and honored him even in the most excruciating torture and severest mental agony caused by excommunication even unto death. Would this have been so, had they noticed the slightest backsliding in their leader?
Even the Catholic Encyclopedia however biased about the Prophet Muhammed, begrudgingly admits:
He was affectionate and magnanimous, pious and austere in the practice of his religion, brave, zealous, and above reproach in his personal and family conduct. Palgrave, however, wisely remarks that “the ideals of Arab virtue†were first conceived and then attributed to him”. Nevertheless, with every allowance for exaggeration, Mohammed is shown by his life and deeds to have been a man of dauntless courage, great generalship, strong patriotism, merciful by nature, and quick to forgive.
2. Was he great enough to stand above the standards of his age?
Yes and superbly so. Just one example is this: To the Arabs, who would fight for forty years on the slight provocation that a camel belonging to the guest of one tribe had strayed into the grazing land belonging to other tribe and both sides had fought till they lost 70,000 lives in all; threatening the extinction of both the tribes to such furious Arabs, the Prophet of Islam taught self-control and discipline to the extent of praying even on the battlefield. In an age of barbarism, the Battlefield itself was humanized and strict instructions were issued not to cheat, not to break trust, not to mutilate, not to kill a child or woman or an old man, not to hew down date palm nor burn it, not to cut a fruit tree, not to molest any person engaged in worship. His own treatment with his bitterest enemies is the noblest example for his followers.
3. Did he leave anything as permanent legacy to the world at large?
The Quran.
Muhammed was illiterate. He hadn’t received any formal education. He’d earned the respect of his friends and family and other Arabs through his honesty and the strength of his character but he could not read or write.
The following glaring facts from the life of Muhammad have been furnished to facilitate an unbiased, logical and objective decision regarding his Prophet hood.
No doubt he possessed an excellent character, charming manners and was highly cultured. Yet there was nothing so deeply striking and so radically extraordinary in him that would make men expect something great and revolutionary from him in the future.
But when he came out of the Cave (HIRA) with a new message, he was completely transformed.
Is it possible for such a person of the above qualities to turn all of a sudden into ‘an impostor’ and claim to be the Prophet of Allah and invite all the rage of his people? One might ask: for what reason did he suffer all those hardships? His people offered to accept him as their King if he would leave the preaching of his religion. But he chose to refuse their tempting offers and go on preaching his religion single-handedly in face of all kinds of insults, social boycott and even physical assault by his own people.
all of Arabia stood in awe and wonder at the Quranic verses and was bewitched by it’s wonderful eloquence and oratory? It was so matchless that the whole legion of Arab poets, preachers and orators of the highest calibre failed to bring forth its equivalent.
And above all, up to the age of forty, Muhammad was not known as a statesman, a preacher or an orator. He was never seen discussing the principles of metaphysics, ethics, law, politics, economics or sociology. how could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature contained in the Qur’an that no other human being could possible have developed at that time?
This is what non-Muslim researchers have to say:
“It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher.”
Annie Besant, THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF MUHAMMAD, Madras,1932, p. 4.
“His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad.”
W. Montgomery Watt, MOHAMMAD AT MECCA, Oxford, 1953, p. 52.
Despite the quality of his character, anyone who claims to have visions of angels is either lying or mentally ill.
so, you do see the point about the quality of his character.
That should really read “Despite what may be said about the quality of his character.”
Muhammad may have been a nice guy, I can’t really tell from hundreds of years in the future. But, as he claimed to have recieved visions from an angel, he must have been either a liar, or mentally ill.
My brother works with the mentally ill. One of the people he works with, thinks he is the second coming of Jesus. He says he talks to god on an almost daily basis. People, quite rightly, call him crazy.
But when someone hundreds, or even thousands of years ago, says that they’re the son of god, or that they talk to god, or that they see visions of angels, people accept it without question. It’s just plain dumb to believe that it’s true.