SFW?

As Mo toon fever spirals out of control internationally, with Indonesia and Pakistan joining the condemnation, Stephen Fry’s words at the Hay-on-Wye feel ever more relevant:

So you’re offended. So fucking what?

The question seems flippant at first glance. Even rude. But it is a serious and profound question. You’re feelings are hurt. You’ve chosen to take offence at somebody else’s words. So fucking what?

It’s an offensive world we live in. Deal with it like an adult. You have not been physically harmed. Why should your offence be more important than someone else’s freedom to express themselves?

So. Fucking. What?

Before you picket a theatre, write to your local paper, fire your AK-47 in the air, or call for someone’s head on a plate, ask yourself this question. Can you give an honest and coherent answer, explaining why your personal hurt feelings take precedence over someone else’s freedom?

Because you need to have an answer to this question. And it has to be a good one. Otherwise you will just be dismissed as an irrational, immature cry-baby with an inflated sense of the importance of your own sensibilities.

So.

Fucking.

What?


65 Responses to “SFW?”

  1. martyn says:

    Isn’t it about time that those infected with the ‘religion virus’ were put into quarantine for the safety of others? Though I can’t help but smirk at a lot of smug US reaction to the latest cartoon furore. My personal opinion is that there is as much to fear from a country where, I believe it to be 48% of the population, believe the universe is about 10,000 years old and everything was made in 6 days. If this god character they all whittle on about is so great, why did it take six days? Surely the whole kit and caboodle could have been done in the blink of an eye? The bible, koran etc?, books for narrow minded people with mental disorders. Savages, all of us.

  2. Flotsam says:

    There have been many calls for Muslim countries to engage in a trade boycott with Denmark. I seem to recall that Denmark’s major exports include pork and bacon. I don’t think the Danes need to worry too much about this one.

  3. Ben Plonie says:

    As for the opening SFW – Over in the Colonies, a fundamental philosophical principle of our rights is for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I am inclined to believe this statement was made very thoughtfully in priority, so that if your liberty puts my life in jeopardy, I can engage at that level, but if it impacts my pursuit of happiness, I might have to accept that. And cetera. If it is not clear, I am agreeing with it.

    But in response to martyn at #1, our smug reaction may arise from the smug European reactions and simplistic lofty lecturing to us when we were dealing with hordes of evil savages chanting for our death while you thought you were safe. I would peruse the much finer writings of Victor Davis Hanson on this topic.

    And with regard to the God issue, your take on it is childish and once again I will refer you to the honest conclusions drawn by Prof. Andrew Flew after a lifetime of informed atheism in response to the works of dr. Gerald Schroeder on Old World Creationism. Check it out before you embarrass yourself again.

  4. Tallen says:

    It reminds me of Bill Hicks response to the anti-porn lobby, and the fact that “pornography causes sexual thought”. Hicks’ response was to query why the following important questions had not been asked:

    Yeah? And? So? What?

  5. Joe M says:

    Here here! SFW.
    Freedoms and rights have a natural hierarchy. The right to have freedom of expression is bigger -oh so much bigger- than the hurt feelings of a group.
    Joe

  6. Pavan says:

    Religion is a pacifier for the masses, religion is created by man, and man is creation of nature/cosmos that we are living in, the greatest enemy to mankind is the mind, and ofcourse nature, which we have no control as of the present. Mind mutates as the nature of man changes, and it is totally acceptable in nature,that is very reason we see serial killers and hitlers, everything is relative, right or wrong. It is upto the mind to accept the degree of relativity , and it seems to me that most of the masses prescribe to ancient beliefs as dogmas, and are not allowing the mind to think free, as it ought to be.

  7. Stuart says:

    Talking of comedians and offence, can you believe they had our old friend Stephen Green on Newsnight to discuss toon fever last night.
    You’ll be relieved to know he thinks the cartoons shouldn’t be censored because ‘Christians don’t bomb tube stations’.
    I can’t help recalling that, prior to 9/11, the biggest terrorist outrage on US soil was a rather large bomb at the FBI building in Oklahoma planted by a known sympathiser of the Christian Identity movement.

  8. Nuek says:

    Nuke Mecca! Show them what a holy war is really all about.

  9. E.H.E.Z says:

    I don`t care about the moslems !
    In my country they even insult Christian in their mosque , burn the church ,even worse bomb ( in a day Christian should be happy ),but nobody protest them >
    So now show your solidarity !! Freedom Press = Martyr

  10. Andrew Nixon says:

    Nuke Mecca! Show them what a holy war is really all about.

    Yeah great idea! Show them how disgusted we are with their violent ways by blowing them up!

  11. Jewell says:

    No one claimed that the Oklahoma City Bombing was planned or executed in the name of Jesus. Militant Islam is the single biggest threat to our society. Actually, doesn’t “Militant Islam” seem a bit redundant?

    If Islam isn’t inheretly opressive and ruthless to nonbelievers, then why haven’t the supposedly peaceful majority of Muslims done something to keep their bloodthirsty brothers from killing at will?

  12. martyn says:

    In response to Ben Plonie, IF I happen to be wrong about the god thing, which I very much doubt, I’ll be in deep shit when I finally snuff it. Unfortunately, if your wrong you’ll never know will you? Religion is there for those who can’t come to terms with questions we may never know the answers to, and their own mortality. How did we all get here? Errr big supreme being did it! Why does the sun go black sometimes? Oooo must be that big supreme being again.
    If everyone believed that this life is all you get, do you think as many would be prepared to take lives so readily? Or in fact sacrifice their own so pointlessly?

    As for ‘hordes of evil savages chanting for our death while you thought you were safe’, the only people who thought they were untouchable were you lot in the US. I’ve grown up with the risk of being blown to bits by the IRA, an organisation that was pretty well funded and armed by US citizens amongst others generous donations. This also means christians do bomb tube stations, as the IRA are catholic christians. I have no particular gripe with individual religions, or gangs as they should be called, because basically that’s what they are. I just feel sorry for the people involved who have had the misfortune to be born to parents who like to fill kids heads with ridiculous stories from ridiculous ancient texts, who will then go on to do the same to their own off spring. Unnervingly similar to the pattern of behaviour displayed by paedophiles.

  13. Linda says:

    While the European press, many from countries that argued against the invasion of Iraq, felt free to show the cartoons, here in the US the press that didn’t think we Americans had the right to know the truth before the war, held the stories about torture and spying until after the elections has NOW decided they don’t want to inflame feelings in the Middle East. Aren’t invasions, torture and arrests without trials way more offensive than anything a cartoon could convey? Thanks Europeans for keeping the beacon of freedom and sanity burning….it’s getting pretty dim over here. (THIS PROBABLY PUT ME ON THE NSA’s WATCH LIST).

  14. me says:

    i can see how the muslims would be very offended and upset, they LIVE thier religion, mohamed was a man of huge significance and they constantly (in conversation) bless and praise him – whenever they mention his name in fact.

    compare that to us westerners, the term ‘jesus christ’ is used to express annoyance, horror or general impatience (etc – always negative)

    lets get real here, freedom of speech isnt freedom to insult and belittle other people and cultures – that simply indicates that we have become uncivilised and degraded.

    muslims represent generally the poorest most shat upon people in the world, all they have left of comfort on a daily basis is thier god and theior prophet, i ask the OTHER quetion, you dont want to ask

    What The Fuck do the Danes expect?

  15. johnston says:

    why should it matter …? sure it might be offensive but newspaper cartoons have depicted an insulted many different world incidents/ countries/ and religions before.the cartoons were not published in a muslim newspaper. so the question is which muslim bought a danish paper and started all ths crap!!!! truely they should take it in the balls and come up with their own cartoon banter for the danish. Instead of making a fuss … now most of the world newspapers are printing them . daft pricks.

  16. martyn says:

    What The Fuck do the Danes expect?
    I would expect the Danes expect to do whatever they like that doesn’t break any laws.

  17. Stuart says:

    Sorry Jewell, got to correct you over the Oklahoma bombing. The clue is in the name ‘Christian Identity’.
    Also try Eric Rudolph, the Atlanta Olympics bomber and ‘Army of God’ member who went on to kill another two and injure 200 in attacks on abortion clinics and gay bars. Also try James Kopp, another AOG member convicted for attacks on US abortion clinics, who was hidden by anti-abortion supporters in the UK and Ireland , including priests, before being captured and sentenced in the US.
    The FBI search for Kopp led to a joint US/UK and Irish security investigation into links between violent US Christian extremists and their financial supporters over here. Before 9/11 changed the focus to Muslims it was the top US priority in anti-terrorism, i.e., after Waco and then Oklahoma the US was more worried about home grown religious nutters than foreign ones, and worried enough about the possibility that they were getting funds from here by a network similar to that funding the IRA, but in reverse, to ask Special Branch and the Charities Commission for help.

  18. jeremy says:

    Too right SFW! Why do muslims think they have the right to maime and kill anyone who doesn’t believe in Islam? We all have a right to freedom of speech and if the muslims don’t like, tough! No one can verify exactly what the prophet muhammad looked like, just as no one really knows what jesus christ looked like, so any visual depictions are fair game!

  19. 5keptical says:

    Christ on a crutch… Prof. Andrew Flew has retracted any statements of his deism. He didn’t do his homework, and
    once he realized that Schroeder was a shill for the theists, he’s back to his original position.

  20. Hassan says:

    In my country there is a proverb “The mouth of a stupid and the ass of a cow is same, none of them knows about the moment and place to exhaust”. If these comments are a representative ones for European then its prove again that this continent only rich in wealth and arms and are still barbaric in their thoughts. Actually the main problem for us we can not insult Jesus or Moses or even Buddha when you insult our prophet. Because we know from our ancient wisdom all of them tried to make the world a better place and its forbidden things for us. You can say this is a weakness, it can be true but the main weakness for us we don’t have wealth and arms. If we have those then we can able to make a “freedom of speech” where only speech from us are free, like you did in our country when you rule it in colonization period(last 2 century) and now doing same from your safe den. Actually you don’t have any respect for other nation or people, this come from your wealth and arms

  21. Hassan says:

    (NOTE: If this is your first post, it may take a short while to be approved.)—-
    Why “freedom of speech” needs a approval!!!

  22. GagWatch says:

    Violence and moderation follows the cartoon jihad

    A round-up of the news and commentary surrounding the Muhammed Cartoons controversy – good, bad and indifferent….

  23. [...] Speaking of which, one blog (can’t remember which, now) pointed towards the increasingly creepy redefinitions of ‘respect’ and ‘offense’. I’ve avoided using the word ‘respect’ for the past couple of years or so because I think its definition is too fuzzy. I know people who think that ‘respecting’ other people’s opinions means you shouldn’t argue with them. I simply don’t know what ‘respect’ means, so I use other words instead. As for ‘offence’, it’s like Stephen Fry said: So you’re offended. So fucking what? [...]

  24. martyn says:

    Linda said (THIS PROBABLY PUT ME ON THE NSA’s WATCH LIST)
    Don’t worry mate, your government gets our government to snoop on your citizens for them. It gets your government around some part of your constitution that forbids them doing it themselves.

  25. Tom says:

    So Fucking What? thats the best response ive heard to this debate. WELL SAID!

  26. Tom says:

    So Fucking What? Thats the best comment Ive heard in this debate. WELL SAID!

  27. psp says:

    I’m from Denmark, and I would like to make some things clearer, regarding the danish cartoons.
    First of all, “me” writes:

    “What The Fuck do the Danes expect? ”

    and you’re right, the news paper, which published the cartoons, obviously did not foresee the violent
    reactions that has come. But would you be so kind not to characterize “the Danes” as having the
    same opinions as this newspaper. For example, what if I said, that all Americans have the same
    opinions as Ross Perot or Ralph Nader. Or, if I said, that the news from Fox News represent the
    general medias in USA?

    Most of the danes, including our Prime Minister, would not have published these cartoons, if they
    were in charge of this newspaper. But they aren’t, and the newspaper has every right to publish whatever
    it wants, as long as it doesn’t break the Danish laws concerning blasphemia etc. It is called freedom
    of speech, and it is a crucial part of democracy. And we just have to accept, that if you have a free
    press, sometimes it means offending other people, groups and religions. If we seriously start limiting
    the freedom of speech on the basis of certain groups feelings, then democracy has already lost.

  28. HnieX says:

    #14

    Witch part of the sentence ‘Freedom of the press’, is it you don’t understand ?

  29. klaus says:

    Freedom of expression is our western heritage and we must defend it or it will die from
    totalitarian attacks. It is also much needed in the Islamic world. By defending our values, we are
    teaching the Islamic world a valuable lesson, we are helping them by submitting their cherished
    traditions to Enlightenment values.

  30. Layla says:

    I thought we lived in an age where we fought for out beliefs. Its apparent that you never go outside and get the chance to see what standing up for your beliefs has done to people all around the world. Abuse of the prophet of Islam is like the use of the “n” word, or calling someone a “cracker”. Those are insulting terms, and only apathetic individuals would be content being called by them. Its a disgrace and harsh reality that there are selfish individuals who do not give a “fuck” about others.

  31. So fucking what…
    Religon is just somehting to solve unanswerable questions, nwo the questions are answered. Who says that in 2000 years time we will not worship Houdini (don’t know how to spell it) who says that Harry Potter won’t replace god?!
    As some rich guy said: “If all was right in the world, good people would do good things and bad people would do bad things, but it’s not all right in the world, there is this thing called religion, which makes good people to terrible things”
    I don’t want to be exremist here, but this gets me so wound up and I think they should respect our rights, seing as ours are at least TRUE. The only way to solve this would be to go in all guns blazing and leave ‘them’ to it and see where there god is then. Also its not just muslims, its all religions!

  32. Cindy says:

    Indeed SFW?!?!? Best comment I’ve heard on this bizarre topic!! Let’s list what I am offended by and see if anyone gives a damn…
    I am offended that Bush is our President. According to the polls, no one did, yet mysterious he reamins in office. I am offended that people of the world think all American people are behind Bush. I say get our guys NOW, why are they there in the first place?
    I am offended that I have to say “happy Holidays” now instead of Merry Christmas. Granted the Christ child was actually born in September, but the pagan holiday of the winter soltice was a highly celebrated thing, so hey why not move the birthday… Anyway getting off track here. I am offended that I cannot wish my friend a Happy Hannukah lest I offend anyone listening into our conversation (which seems to be OK, the whole spying thing)…
    I have decided to leave my Christmas er, um, holiday tree up all year as it wasn’t exactly designated for which holiday….I’ll put little hearts on it for Valentines, and shamrock for St Patty’s Day and little bunnies for Easter (because God forbid I use crosses or religious symbols in my own home) …
    So you Muslims that got your feelings hurt. Who cares? I don’t. My feelings are hurt on a daily basis. I have yet to pick up a gun and shoot someone (although they arguably deserve it). I can’t get over the fuss over this. It looks like they look for reasons to act like immature little spoiled brats and I am tired of it. Bravo Denmark for having the balls to print the cartoons and to those who are SO offended, how do really know what Mohammed looks like if no one is allow to show a likeness of him?

  33. Iain says:

    In no way do I condone the violence that has occurred as a result of these cartoons and in many ways the focus of the current protests is purely a catalyst to a much wider and more complex atmosphere of distrust towards the West within a wide cross section of the Muslim community. ‘Freedom of Speech’ and the ability to voice one’s opinions is a core foundation of the democratic society in which we live, however this freedom needs to be treated responsibly. Religious icons within the West have been devalued to the point where ridicule is not deemed in anyway ‘insulting’, however this is not the case elsewhere in the world and we do not have the right to expect that our values (or ‘de-values’) should be followed by everyone else.

    Hypothetical situation: I am in a bar and during a discussion I state that I think someone’s mother is a whore (ridicule), that person then punches me in the mouth. In terms of freedom of speech, I had the right to say what I did, however I chose a subject that was very sensitive to the other person and most people in our culture would believe taboo. Most people would agree that the person who punched me was justified in doing so (or that they would react in the same way), I know if I was in a bar and someone insulted my mother like that, its what I would do! In the current climate, I am not surprised that the reaction in the Muslim world has been as strong as it has.

    Freedom of Speech is something that should be cherished, however if we use it irresponsibly or abuse the privilege, we run the risk of losing it or having our rights eroded. We are lucky to have ‘Free Press’ here in the UK (although they are only as free as their politically motivated owners allow them to be) however the press can often be morally and ethically ‘relaxed’ when it comes to the way a story is reported as the headlines that are printed influence public opinion and rarely give a balanced perspective. (We can be thankful we still have the BBC).

    Whilst I do not consider myself ‘religious’, I think the principle of ‘Do unto others as you would have them do unto you’ is pretty sound advice. Everyone has things that are important and sacred to them and we expect other people to respect that, we need to give out the same degree of respect in return, or expect an angry response. Its not the absolute answer, but it’s a good start!

  34. referring to 33# there is a difference from punching someone in the face to what the protesting uslims are saying to us – they are saying those that insult islam should be slaughtered, that all news channels, outlets should be demolished. Not to mention destryoing the Dane’s emabassy where ever it was for no apparent reason after all, it was a newspaper with the RIGHT TO SAY WHAT THEY WANT in OUR SIDE OF THE WORLD, where as on a daily basis in the middle and far east christ and others are constantly insulted, and we don’t blow up their embasies and threaten to behead them, do we?

  35. Iain says:

    As I said, I do not condone the violent actions nor the placards that have been widely reported. I was purely stating that in the current climate it is understandable that there was a heated response. Secondly, I was drawing an analogy to make a point, that if you make a provoking statement it is likely you will provoke a response. It was not a literal comparison.

    The issues we face will continue whilst people continue to think of ‘Our side of the world’ and ‘Their side of the world’ – this applies to the Muslim extremists equally. The reality is we all live in one world today and it is no-where near as big as it used to be.

  36. Rojo46 says:

    Shame! Shame on all those who are calling the publication of those “insulting” cartoons wrong. Shame on Bill Clinton, shame on the State Department, shame on Jack Straw. Shame on those who still think that Islam is a “religion of peace“. Cheers to the brave newspapers in Europe who are standing up to the outrageous Muslim demands. Where is the American media’s outrage? Why are we trying to make excuses the behavior those who are only exercising freedom of the press? Muslims all over the would, not a tiny minority of extremists, are demanding that the west apologized to them. They are telling us that their religion is more important than our freedoms, they are telling us that they are more important than us. Because, in their eyes, their religion has been insulted, they are calling for death, death to Demark, death to Germany, death to everybody. They are rioting and carrying signs demanding the beheading of the “guilty” parties. If we back down before these childish temper tantrums, we will be giving up the freedom that so many have fought and died for. The Muslim demands are wholly unacceptable, no religion has the right to demand others to follow it. Islam is not respectful of any other religion, Islam calls Jews pigs and monkeys. Islam states that no other religion has any value. Islam has been spread through death and destruction as its armies spewed out or Arabia, sweeping all before them. Islam will not rest until the entire world is Dar al Islam. Islam wants to destroy western culture root and branch and replace it with the Sharia. We must take the time to learn about what Islam is really about, not what their pleasant falsehoods tell us. We have fought world wars to stop evil governments with desires to conquer the world. The threat from Islam is no less dangerous.
    Gods of all other religions shall be the fuel of Hell (21:98-100)
    All Gods except Allah are created, dead and false, they all lead to hell (16:20-21, 25:17-19, 29:41-42,37:22-25)

  37. Bea says:

    Whatever happened to the concept of mutual respect?
    In my view, mocking and insulting someone that you hold most dear and sacred is BULLYING!
    Unfortunately and sadly after being bullied for years the Muslim world has learned that no one cares or listens until you raise your voice loud enough through whatever it takes. Some factions are taking it too far. And they are wrong to do so!
    I don’t condone anyone’s extreme act or words of violence but why insult an already very frail mindset in the first place. Just to prove a point? Why give the trouble makers yet another chance to stir up the trouble?
    You only have to read Chris McGreal’s article in The Guardian which published today or just read about the genocide carried out by the Serbs to see why Muslims feel frustrated all over again. Even though the whole uproar is about ‘just a cartoon’ as most of you think but can’t you see where this is going. Before the holocaust it was common practice to print cartoons calling Jews all sorts of names. I am sure there were people just like you who said SO FUCKING WHAT and we all know WHAT happened!
    I am a Muslim and I am not a terrorist as was implied in the cartoon. I find the insinuation insulting and hurtful? I was on the tube coming home in London on 7/7. Now I don’t have to convince anyone how scary and frightening and traumatizing that was. We the ordinary Muslims are suffering just as much because of this ongoing saga. I condemn anyone belonging to any faith committing any kind of act of violence.
    For some people it might be acceptable and a routine practice to mock anyone and everyone who they seem fit for whatever reason but I don’t go around insulting all Americans for the crimes their government is committing in Middle East. I have Jew friends despite what Israel is doing in the Palestine. I don’t go around calling names when I see Irish because of the IRA. And I certainly don’t expect anyone to do it to me. Yes, any insult to our Prophet, we take it personally. That’s the way we are! Most people don’t understand that concept but we are not asking for understanding at this point all we are asking is a little sensitivity. There are things we just don’t do, not because we can’t but because the world is a nicer place without them. This is not a matter of opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but sometimes its best to keep your opinions to yourself if it is going to hurt someone. Would it be too much to just leave us alone and let us live with dignity? I am deeply hurt by the ignorance and arrogance I have seen and like me there are millions of nice, decent family oriented and respectable Muslims who actively and productively contribute to the society, we pay our taxes, help our neighbors regardless of their colour or religion and lastly we are not out on the streets protesting but going about our lives sad and hurt at the insensitivity of the western media. All of us are astonished how the west is constantly finding trigger points to twist us around.

  38. shush, i imagine im more than half the age of you = shh! lol,
    when i said our side i meant, develpoed and acceptance, their side i meant developing and starting to accept

  39. Rojo46 says:

    Well Bea, why aren’t you “ordinary” muslims doing anything about what’s going on? Stop crying victim, we’re over it. Why are muslims “being attacked”? Because Islam is exporting its violence to the world outside of the Middle East. Don’t you know about Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb? Don’t you know that once kafirs are offered a chance to convert , or revert as arrogant muslims like to say, to Islam and they refuse, they can be killed under Islamic law? When you come into somebody’s house and start smashing everything in sight, wouldn’t you expect the people living there to become upset? Muslims have moved into Europe in droves and shown no sign of trying to assimilate into the culture, instead they are insisting that the culture change for them. What supreme arrogance! If you really want to help, stop whining about how muslims are being treated and do something to civilize Islam’s savage aspects.

  40. Bea says:

    Well Rojo, you seem to be quoting what the militant groups want you to believe. Just so you know, my concept of Islamic state is quite different. According to my knowledge non-believers are allowed to live in Islamic state unharmed and they are required to pay tax. An example of this is when the Mecca was conquered, Prophet Muhammad told his army not to harm old, women and children and anyone who didn’t wish to fight. That was fourteen hundred years ago. We have seen bloody crusades as well since then and we know exactly how the non-Muslims behaved in theses circumstances. Savage is just one way to describe it. Nothing for you to be proud of!
    As far as you being over ‘us being victims’, that’s the most arrogant thing I have read. No, I have to admit its one of the arrogant and ignorant comment we have seen recently.
    Haven’t you opened your eyes to what’s happening? Why the terrorist are now targeting Europe (not that I condone any of this!) It is a direct result of western governments meddling with them for years. Who sold weapons to Saddam Hussein in the first place?
    Who was a great friend of Bin-Laden? If you knew answers to these questions you would be reading a lot more about what’s been going on in the Middle-east before dishing out your hate speeches.
    Why we can’t do anything about the trouble makers… the same reason Irish couldn’t do anything about the IRA for a long time. We don’t know who they are getting their funding from. We are distancing ourselves and not joining them in their stupid ness. They know that we are not with them. Out of at least 6 hundred thousand Muslim population in London, only 300 trouble makers went to demonstration and you are calling all the Muslims terrorists. I don’t know how you think that is a fair assumption?
    What you see as whining is a cry for help and an attempt to make our point of view. If you see that as whinning, I don’t think you have the mental maturity to be having any of this discussion.

  41. I agree with Rojo, when the new member states joined the EU through last year, the UK recieved over 300,000 imigrants from those areas alone, yet – when they come over, they learn the language, learn the culture and watch the way we look at life. The asume our culture and if something isn’t the way there use to – they don’t go around protesting in huge droves. They will mention to someone high up in the local community and get it sorted.
    Where as, I’m not condeming all muslims, after all it seems mainly middle eastern muslims, indian mislums conerge in the society of the UK. After all, without indians, my diet would be non-existant!!
    Thousands if not millions of ‘ME Muslims’ pour through the airports daily and complain about how ‘imperfect’ our society is, if our society and culture and lifestyle doesn’t suite you and all you are going to do is complain – then WHY THE F*CK come her ein the first place, if your home country is filled with war and raveged by poverty, be grateful for what you get. Come to the UK, get a job, get a house, get a family ans shut the hell up!

  42. “you are calling all the Muslims terrorists” not once in this entire newsgroup has anyone ever once said that “all the Muslims terrorists”!!! DO NOT BE SO ARAGONT, may i jsut ask, in your view, Bea, what do you see as racism?

  43. Bea says:

    First of all, I don’t even know what ‘ARAGONT’ means. Is it a new word in your dictionary?
    Racism? Sorry, was this a rhetorical question?
    Regarding your rant about ME Muslims coming off plane and start complaining about the lifestyle overhere on daily basis. I am sorry, I am not aware of that particular trend. How many Muslims have you interviewed to come to this enlightened conclusion? Some people are just grumpy no matter where they are and their religions has nothing to do with it! Why does it bother you, after all its a country of free speech therefore they can be grumpy about anything and it shouldn’t bother you.

  44. simalex says:

    “Isn’t it about time that those infected with the ‘religion virus’ were put into quarantine for the safety of others?”

    yes, yes YES!

    So fucking what is just the right question. You know what strikes me as a shame? The fact that the Islamic world, which invented such brilliant things like algebra and the concept of “zero,” built wonder-of-the-world caliber buildings like the alhambra, has now degenerated to a place where silly despots and cartoons raise their collective energy level. what an amazing and tragic intellectual decay.

  45. Cober says:

    Bea, I’m sorry. But you are wrong. The Koran says:

    ANNOUNCE PAINFUL PUNISHMENT TO THOSE WHO DISBELIEVE (9:3)

    O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred… (8:65)

    Surely the vilest of animals in Allah’s sight are those who disbelieve (8:55)

    And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah (8:39)

    When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

    Now, I admit, that some of the nuances may be lost in translation, but overall message is not very nice. And historically, there have been times where Islam has echoed these sentiments with extreme efficiency, such as during the invasion of India. So, as a good Muslim, do you follow those commandments?

  46. Bea says:

    Hi Cober, you are handpicking the verses from Quran to prove the Muslims are violent and that’s exactly what the extremists are doing by exploitation.
    Quran was revealed over the period of 23 years. The revelations the Prophet (SAW) received were sometimes just a few verses, a part of chapter or a whole chapter. Some revelations came down in response to an inquiry by the nonbelievers.
    You can not understand the Quran unless you read about the detailed history of the verses. You can not take the verses out of their context without limiting your understanding. I am going to give you a quick review of the events that took place at that time so that you can evaluate the relevance of the verses.

    The mission of the Prophet was to restore the worship of ONE TRUE GOD as was taught by all the other prophets including Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Ka’bah was the first house of worship built in the name of Allah and was rebuilt (raised from its foundations) by the Prophet Abraham. By time of Prophet Muhammed, the holy sanctuary of Ka’bah was filled with 360 idols. From the point of view of religion, Arabia was idolatrous; only a few individuals had embraced religions like Christianity, Mazdaism, etc. The Meccans did possess the notion of the One God, but they believed also that idols had the power to intercede with Him. Curiously enough, they did not believe in the Resurrection and Afterlife. They had preserved the rite of the pilgrimage to the House of the One God, the Ka’bah, an institution set up under divine inspiration by their ancestor Abraham, yet the two thousand years that separated them from Abraham had caused to degenerate this pilgrimage into the spectacle of a commercial fair and an occasion of senseless idolatry which far from producing any good, only served to ruin their individual behaviour, both social and spiritual.
    The Prophet began by preaching his mission secretly first among his intimate friends, then among the members of his own tribe and thereafter publicly in the city and suburbs. He insisted on the belief in One Transcendent God, in Resurrection and the Last Judgement. He invited men to charity and beneficence. He took necessary steps to preserve through writing the revelations he was receiving, and ordered his adherents also to learn them by heart. This continued all through his life, since the Quran was not revealed all at once, but in fragments as occasions arose.

    The number of his adherents increased gradually, but with the denunciation of paganism, the opposition also grew intenser on the part of those who were firmly attached to their ancestral beliefs. This opposition degenerated in the course of time into physical torture of the Prophet and of those who had embraced his religion. These were stretched on burning sands, cauterized with red hot iron and imprisoned with chains on their feet. Some of them died of the effects of torture, but none would renounce his religion. In despair, the Prophet Muhammad advised his companions to quit their native town and take refuge abroad, in Abyssinia, “where governs a just ruler, in whose realm nobody is oppressed” (Ibn Hisham). Dozens of Muslims profited by his advice, though not all. These secret flights led to further persecution of those who remained behind. In spite of great hardship and no apparent support, the message of Islam kept Muslims firm in their belief. The Prophet was asked by God to be patient and preach the message of Quran. He advised Muslims to remain patient because he did not receive any relevation yet to retaliate against their persecutors.
    Quraish made life even more difficult for the Prophet and Muslims by implementing total ban on contact with their families. This ban lasted 3 years without the desired effect. After three dire years, during which the victims were obliged to devour even crushed hides, four or five non-Muslims, more humane than the rest and belonging to different clans proclaimed publicly their denunciation of the unjust boycott. At the same time, the document promulgating the pact of boycott which had been hung in the temple, was found, as Muhammad had predicted, eaten by white ants, that spared nothing but the words God and Muhammad. They returned to Mecca but after attempts of Quryesh to assassinate the Prophet, finally emigrated to Medinah. That’s when the Islamic calendar begins.
    To insure the peace and tranquility, the Prophet proposed a treaty defining terms of conduct for all inhabitants of Medinah. It was ratified by all, Muslims, non-Muslims, Arabs and Jews.
    After his emigration to Medinah, the enemies of Islam increased their assaults on Islam on all sides. The battles of Badr, Uhad and Trench were fought in or around Medinah.

    Here you quote 9:3 and 9:5
    He 9th Surah is Al-Taubah ‘Repentance’. It is often called Immunity from the first word with which it begins. It is generally considered to be an account of stern commandments against idolators which it contains. The Christian Byzantine Empire had begun to move against the the growing Muslim power and the Surah mentions of a great war to come and instructions with regard to it. The date of revelation is 9th year of Hijrah.

    You mention 9:3 and 9:5 which are probably the sternest verse in the whole Surah. And these are God’s instructions in event of expected war and a clear way of treatment of those who persecuted Muslims. You forget to mention the verse above it

    9:4 Excepting those of the idolaters with whom you(Muslims) have a treaty, who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. Fulfill their treat to them to the term. Allah loves those who keep their duty.
    And you didn’t mention the verse after it
    9:6 And if anyone of the idolater seeks protection, then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah. And afterwards, convey him to his place of safety.

    You also mentioned 8:55, 8:56, and 8:39
    These verse are taken from the Surah Al-Anfal ( The Spoils of War). The battle of Badr took place and the army of Qureysh outnumbered the Muslims by more than two to one, and was much better mounted and equipped, so that their leaders counted on easy victory. This Surah was revealed to the prophet during the war of Bar.
    I’m glad that you quoted the Quran but please don’t take the verses out of their context as their meaning can be twisted and misinterpreted.

    You said I was wrong! One of events that led to the occupation of Mecca was the assassination of a Muslim ambassador in Syria-Palestine; and instead of punishing the culprit, the emperor Heraclius rushed with his armies to protect him against the punitive expedition sent by the Prophet (battle of Mu’tah). The pagans of Mecca hoping to profit by the Muslim difficulties, violated the terms of their treaty. Upon this, the Prophet himself led an army, ten thousand strong, and surprised Mecca which he occupied in a bloodless manner. As a benevolent conqueror, he caused the vanquished people to assemble, reminded them of their ill deeds, their religious persecution, unjust confiscation of the evacuee property, ceaseless invasions and senseless hostilities for twenty years continuously. He asked them: “Now what do you expect of me?” When everybody lowered his head with shame, the Prophet proclaimed: “May God pardon you; go in peace; there shall be no responsibility on you today; you are free!” He even renounced the claim for the Muslim property confiscated by the pagans. This produced a great psychological change of hearts instantaneously. When a Meccan chief advanced with a fulsome heart towards the Prophet, after hearing this general amnesty, in order to declare his acceptance of Islam, the Prophet told him: “And in my turn, I appoint you the governor of Mecca!” Without leaving a single soldier in the conquered city, the Prophet retired to Madinah. The Islamization of Mecca, which was accomplished in a few hours, was complete.

    The Quran also says

    “Do not let your hatred of a people incite you to aggression.” (5:2).
    “And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly.
    Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness” (5:8).
    Another verse tells the prophet to “show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” (7:199)
    The Quran also says: “Invite (all) to the way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching, and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knows best who have strayed from His Path and who receive guidance.” (16:125)
    “When (the righteous) hear vain talk, they withdraw from it saying: ‘Our deeds are for us and yours for you; peace be on to you. We do not desire the way of the ignorant’. . .O Prophet (Muhammad), you cannot give guidance to whom you wish, it is God Who gives guidance to whom He pleases, and He is quite aware of those who are guided.” (28:55-56)

    Hadith: “You do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness.” (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

  47. Bea says:

    Simalex, I agree with the second part of your comment regarding the demise of islamic intellect. It is shameful.

  48. “free speech therefore they can be grumpy about anything and it shouldn’t bother you” so then the cartoons shouldn’t bother anyone, but the worlds not perfect!

  49. sorry for double poasting, again.
    With me it’s just not islam i don’t see beleivable, its all religions, the universe is billuons of billions of years old, earth is millions of millions years old, all life has eveolved, all life made itself.
    Religion was put in place by early phiosphers to fill the gaps of ‘were we came from’ and ‘how we got here’, now that we have the explanation, religion is usless.
    Suffering is either caused by man, like the 13 murdered during islamic protests of the cartoons, or the 200 million slaughtered during the world wars.
    The other cause is the imperfection of our planets, ruptures in the suface of the planet caused the earth quakes and tsunami’s not ‘allah’s or gods revenge and hatred.

    The most likely ‘supeficial’ force I believe in is Karma, you do osmething good, you get something good in return, you do something bad, you get something bad in return. But the cartoon, keeping to the main point, was good nor bad, just depends how you want to take it, and by depecting one ‘person’ from thousands of years ago as a terorist for the sake of a cartoon IS NOT the end of the world.

  50. OMG! oh did you see that, ITS JUST A PHRASE no lightning fell from the sky and ended my life for using ‘the lords name in vein’
    Bea, aragont was a typo, no need to start flaming!